111111 wrote:Hello all. I am here on this board for one purpose only, and that is to place my opinion on this topic in hopes to enlighten those who may be in doubt. The reason why creation is something that is dubbed onto how the earth came to it's existence, is because creation is something that is natural within the human nature. It all makes since. God says "let us create man in our image". So with that law presented, if god is a creator, his off spring will be creators as well. You can't demean the fact that humans have higher capabilities and aren't animals. The reason why is because we have the ability to sympathize and communicate beyond the mental capacity of most other creatures. Based on the theory of "circle of life" in that all in the ecosystem is connected (which has been proved scientifically that if certain parts of an animals environment is affected it will cause harm to the creatures within.) At one point dinosaurs ruled the earth, however they still weren't as intelligent as humans are (the current obvious rulers of the earth). So why is it that our species of organisms came out so much more intelligent and capable than any other species on this earth. People naturally like to create buildings, films, art, businesses, life, events. Creation. That is the key to all. In order for something to exist it had to have been created. In order for something to be created, some driving force has to be behind the creation. Creating is act. God is real and so is the supernatural. And parallel dimensions. Where do you think "heaven and hell" are. Probably in other dimensions.

Sorry for digging into this old thread.

If by law, God off spring are creators as well, God would be in deep trouble with the likes of millions, billions, trillions...so on of Osama Bin Ladin running around chanting "Death to God" out there in the universe. (remember Satan?)

God would be one heck of a busy God doing corrections. Perhaps he is to really busy to return to earth?

Seriously, I doubt God would allow that. If it's true, than that be a very very unwise and unintelligent God.

OneMoreNut wrote:

111111 wrote:Hello all. I am here on this board for one purpose only, and that is to place my opinion on this topic in hopes to enlighten those who may be in doubt. The reason why creation is something that is dubbed onto how the earth came to it's existence, is because creation is something that is natural within the human nature. It all makes since. God says "let us create man in our image". So with that law presented, if god is a creator, his off spring will be creators as well. You can't demean the fact that humans have higher capabilities and aren't animals. The reason why is because we have the ability to sympathize and communicate beyond the mental capacity of most other creatures. Based on the theory of "circle of life" in that all in the ecosystem is connected (which has been proved scientifically that if certain parts of an animals environment is affected it will cause harm to the creatures within.) At one point dinosaurs ruled the earth, however they still weren't as intelligent as humans are (the current obvious rulers of the earth). So why is it that our species of organisms came out so much more intelligent and capable than any other species on this earth. People naturally like to create buildings, films, art, businesses, life, events. Creation. That is the key to all. In order for something to exist it had to have been created. In order for something to be created, some driving force has to be behind the creation. Creating is act. God is real and so is the supernatural. And parallel dimensions. Where do you think "heaven and hell" are. Probably in other dimensions.

Sorry for digging into this old thread.

If by law, God off spring are creators as well, God would be in deep trouble with the likes of millions, billions, trillions...so on of Osama Bin Ladin running around chanting "Death to God" out there in the universe. (remember Satan?)

God would be one heck of a busy God doing corrections. Perhaps he is to really busy to return to earth?

Seriously, I doubt God would allow that. If it's true, than that be a very very unwise and unintelligent God.

Hi guys,

Man evolved and was not created and so the pattern of following a higher being (God) doesn't exist. Through evolution, species become higher evolved and learn new skills and adapt newer traits to survive an ever changing environment. We are not unique above other animals in how we communicate, we are different. You talk about creating and building, yes humans are fundamentally accepted as the dominant species on earth and vastly more intelligent than most other species. Look at the weaver bird, the magnificent nest he builds to accommodate his family, a structure as majestic as anything a human has built, it may not be as hardy as a concrete block but there was no blueprint laid down, no architectural design to follow, it was built on instinct, where this creature gathered all the tools to build this palace itself. Elephants communicate on a very high level and are very loyal to it's own species, can man say that. I could go on and on offering examples of animals indomitable spirit in adversity and the life skills they need to survive, some which go way beyond our own capacity and capabilities.

Man has always followed his own way, there is/was no god laying out a path as everything that happens in the world becomes attributed to god, both good and bad. We learn our own rules in how to conduct our lives and whichever path you follow determines how you are percieved, not as in a judgemental way when you die, but by your fellow man, your family and many that know you. You get one life, this is not a rehearsal and when it's over it is over.

Comming back to your question of you cannot get something from nothing. If there was nothing in the begining how was there a big bang. end of discusion, you claim science has the answer, i believe in the theory of evolution and i would trust a scientist more than a religuous person. BUT the fact is if there was hydrogen and other gasses at the start, why could there not be a god? or who know the bing bang may have created him?

jamielotter wrote:Comming back to your question of you cannot get something from nothing. If there was nothing in the begining how was there a big bang. end of discusion, you claim science has the answer, i believe in the theory of evolution and i would trust a scientist more than a religuous person. BUT the fact is if there was hydrogen and other gasses at the start, why could there not be a god? or who know the bing bang may have created him?

Hi Jamielotter,

If you believe in the theory of evolution then you really do not need to ask the question. The big bang was the result of an exploding planet or star which created a meganova of which the matter which spewed forth from the effects of the big bang created the solar system/galaxy that earth sits in. I have posted in more detail regarding the science behind this and will invite you to view these posts and maybe these will offer a level of explanation into the processes of the evolvement of our planet and life upon it. Should you accept this invitation I would be interested in any views you may have given your own belief in evolution.

Mr Darwin.

jamielotter wrote:Comming back to your question of you cannot get something from nothing. If there was nothing in the begining how was there a big bang. end of discusion, you claim science has the answer, i believe in the theory of evolution and i would trust a scientist more than a religuous person. BUT the fact is if there was hydrogen and other gasses at the start, why could there not be a god? or who know the bing bang may have created him?

Technically speaking there is no such thing as nothingness. Even what we refer to as empty space is full of potential energy! So it is quite possible the BB was nothing more than a quantum fluctuation converting potential energy into matter. No god required. But this implies that something existed prior to the BB and was the cause for it! And if a quantum fluctuation was the cause, this implies a law of physics similar to what we currently understand existed prior to the BB. And if a law of physics is the reason for the quantum fluctuation which caused the BB, is the physics law a natural consequence of a vacuum or did something create the law? The point is, there is no reason why a god could not exist and ultimately be the real reason behind the BB because obviously something was! We just don't know what that something was!

If you want my opinion, I believe it was what we would refer to as a god. But I do not believe in the religious sense. I believe any creator, if one exists, would have created through the laws of physics that govern our universe and everything in it. Meaning evolution is the natural process for this universe and was set in motion at the BB.

There is no conflict between being a believer in God and believing in science, including evolution. Evolution is simply one of the tools of science a creator used, if one exists! If anyone tries to convince you otherwise, it is nothing more than their bias. Never stop believing [if you have a valid reason] and never stop asking questions, even if you don't like the answer. I am where I'm at today because I did not like the answers to my questions, and I wouldn't change a thing.

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

jamielotter wrote:Comming back to your question of you cannot get something from nothing. If there was nothing in the begining how was there a big bang. end of discusion, you claim science has the answer, i believe in the theory of evolution and i would trust a scientist more than a religuous person. BUT the fact is if there was hydrogen and other gasses at the start, why could there not be a god? or who know the bing bang may have created him?

Mr Darwin wrote:Hi Jamielotter,

If you believe in the theory of evolution then you really do not need to ask the question.

Why not? Believing in evolution does not preclude believing in a creator. Nor does it eliminate the possibility for the existence of one.

The big bang was the result of an exploding planet or star which created a meganova of which the matter which spewed forth from the effects of the big bang created the solar system/galaxy that earth sits in.

Any planet or star with all the mass of our universe would collapse back in on itself creating a black hole with a singularity of infinite density at the heart of it all. So we're right back where we started, a singularity of infinite density which began to expand somehow and continues still. Something with greater energy than the singularity was able to overcome the unimaginably intense gravitational effect and appears to have added or caused a change in dark energy to be repulsive. Perhaps dark energy was the cause behind the BB? Or maybe our universe is nothing more than the collision of two 2D [mem]branes as string theory predicts?

I have posted in more detail regarding the science behind this...

Behind the BB or evolution? You seem to be linking the two here. If the BB I would be interested in reading them.

...and will invite you to view these posts and maybe these will offer a level of explanation into the processes of the evolvement of our planet...

Which should be a slam dunk for anyone who has a basic understanding of physics, or has access to the History Channel. They have a great series called The Universe which offers an excellent explanation in layman terms. There's also a series called How The Earth was Made. So anyone who watches this channel and is not blinded by dogma should be able to explain this in detail.

...and life upon it. Should you accept this invitation I would be interested in any views you may have given your own belief in evolution.

Mr Darwin.

This is where I will defer to you as it is obvious this is your area of expertise. Anyone interested in learning about evolution would do well to come to you. Besides, what little I do know of it is the result of research in response to debating!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

fuzoid wrote:

jamielotter wrote:Comming back to your question of you cannot get something from nothing. If there was nothing in the begining how was there a big bang. end of discusion, you claim science has the answer, i believe in the theory of evolution and i would trust a scientist more than a religuous person. BUT the fact is if there was hydrogen and other gasses at the start, why could there not be a god? or who know the bing bang may have created him?

Mr Darwin wrote:Hi Jamielotter,

If you believe in the theory of evolution then you really do not need to ask the question.

Why not? Believing in evolution does not preclude believing in a creator. Nor does it eliminate the possibility for the existence of one.

The big bang was the result of an exploding planet or star which created a meganova of which the matter which spewed forth from the effects of the big bang created the solar system/galaxy that earth sits in.

Any planet or star with all the mass of our universe would collapse back in on itself creating a black hole with a singularity of infinite density at the heart of it all. So we're right back where we started, a singularity of infinite density which began to expand somehow and continues still. Something with greater energy than the singularity was able to overcome the unimaginably intense gravitational effect and appears to have added or caused a change in dark energy to be repulsive. Perhaps dark energy was the cause behind the BB? Or maybe our universe is nothing more than the collision of two 2D [mem]branes as string theory predicts?

I have posted in more detail regarding the science behind this...

Behind the BB or evolution? You seem to be linking the two here. If the BB I would be interested in reading them.

...and will invite you to view these posts and maybe these will offer a level of explanation into the processes of the evolvement of our planet...

Which should be a slam dunk for anyone who has a basic understanding of physics, or has access to the History Channel. They have a great series called The Universe which offers an excellent explanation in layman terms. There's also a series called How The Earth was Made. So anyone who watches this channel and is not blinded by dogma should be able to explain this in detail.

...and life upon it. Should you accept this invitation I would be interested in any views you may have given your own belief in evolution.

Mr Darwin.

This is where I will defer to you as it is obvious this is your area of expertise. Anyone interested in learning about evolution would do well to come to you. Besides, what little I do know of it is the result of research in response to debating!

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid

Hi Fuzoid,

An interesting point you place at my door. That of evolution not precluding a belief in a creator. Whilst the possibility of such a being existing in order to pull all the disparate elements together after the big bang, evidence and ultimate proof is thin on the ground. The belief and acceptance that life may have been created by a god or higher being is strictly in the realm of religion and for me does not belong in astrological science. If there was a creator in the form of man, this would throw out every argument as to where our origins lie as this creator/god would be the purveyor of all life and would suggest that a humanoid existed before any other species, if we are to believe that god is humanoid, and that unquestionably would debunk the whole debate surrounding the theory and science that is evolution.

I am have to concede that your scientific knowledge far exceeds mine and like yourself I would defer that the sciences are your area of expertise and to try and debate these at any length without adequate knowledge would be folly. Yes, I have committed the cardinal sin of misrepresentation with suggesting I would explain the science behind this, I think processes would have been more apt as my further comment stated.

I do watch the wonderful series the universe and also Brian cox great series wonders of our solar system. Both of these offer great insights into how the earth and other planets formed and also point towards their future progression or expiry whichever angle you take. But dont ask me to explain any of it.

Mr Darwin.

Hey Darwin!

Mr Darwin wrote:Hi Fuzoid,

An interesting point you place at my door. That of evolution not precluding a belief in a creator. Whilst the possibility of such a being existing in order to pull all the disparate elements together after the big bang, evidence and ultimate proof is thin on the ground.

But this is not what I stated! If you read my response to Jamie, you will note that I said if there is a creator, IT used the laws of physics to create our universe through the BB, which ultimately led to the evolution of our universe, and everything in it! Once the creation act was done, I believe any creator stepped back into the shadows to watch ITs creation unfold, including the evolution of life.

The belief and acceptance that life may have been created by a god or higher being is strictly in the realm of religion and for me does not belong in astrological science.

Good thing that I'm not touching on religion then! Again, I never claimed a god created life per se. But I did say that if the universe was created, which I believe it was, it was created exclusively to support life (which evolved) for the benefit of consciousness evolution. A creator would have only set things in motion with the BB.

If there was a creator in the form of man, this would throw out every argument as to where our origins lie as this creator/god would be the purveyor of all life and would suggest that a humanoid existed before any other species, if we are to believe that god is humanoid, and that unquestionably would debunk the whole debate surrounding the theory and science that is evolution.

Where is this coming from? Have you ever read anything from me that claimed I believe God exists in the form of man, or as a humanoid? Let's not forget that I dispute the Bible, including the part that claims humans were created in the image of God! The only thing you would have read from me about God is that I have no idea who or what IT is! Nor will I try to guess because there is not enough information to form an opinion one way or the other! Although I believe in a god, you will never read anything from me claiming to know who or what IT is!

I am have to concede that your scientific knowledge far exceeds mine and like yourself I would defer that the sciences are your area of expertise and to try and debate these at any length without adequate knowledge would be folly. Yes, I have committed the cardinal sin of misrepresentation with suggesting I would explain the science behind this, I think processes would have been more apt as my further comment stated.

For the record, I wasn't trying to disrespect you. You made a claim that doesn't agree with the observed evidence and I simply corrected you. Besides, I have far too much respect for you to intentionally disrespect you.

I do watch the wonderful series the universe and also Brian cox great series wonders of our solar system. Both of these offer great insights into how the earth and other planets formed and also point towards their future progression or expiry whichever angle you take. But dont ask me to explain any of it.

Mr Darwin.

That's right, I had forgotten about Wonders of the Solar System! Another excellent series! But I sure would appreciate it if they would get around to making new programs, I'm tired of watching all the re-runs. But I do anyway and I usually discover something new that I may have missed prevously.

Do you live in the UK or the USA? The reason I ask is because I thought you lived in the UK and I did not know that these same programs are also airing there!

Anyway, I hope you didn't take my response personal because some major correcting regarding the BB was in order. Just as I would expect you to correct me if I made a boner of a mistake regarding evolution.

fuzoid

fuzoid wrote:Hey Darwin!

Mr Darwin wrote:Hi Fuzoid,

An interesting point you place at my door. That of evolution not precluding a belief in a creator. Whilst the possibility of such a being existing in order to pull all the disparate elements together after the big bang, evidence and ultimate proof is thin on the ground.

But this is not what I stated! If you read my response to Jamie, you will note that I said if there is a creator, IT used the laws of physics to create our universe through the BB, which ultimately led to the evolution of our universe, and everything in it! Once the creation act was done, I believe any creator stepped back into the shadows to watch ITs creation unfold, including the evolution of life.

The belief and acceptance that life may have been created by a god or higher being is strictly in the realm of religion and for me does not belong in astrological science.

Good thing that I'm not touching on religion then! Again, I never claimed a god created life per se. But I did say that if the universe was created, which I believe it was, it was created exclusively to support life (which evolved) for the benefit of consciousness evolution. A creator would have only set things in motion with the BB.

If there was a creator in the form of man, this would throw out every argument as to where our origins lie as this creator/god would be the purveyor of all life and would suggest that a humanoid existed before any other species, if we are to believe that god is humanoid, and that unquestionably would debunk the whole debate surrounding the theory and science that is evolution.

Where is this coming from? Have you ever read anything from me that claimed I believe God exists in the form of man, or as a humanoid? Let's not forget that I dispute the Bible, including the part that claims humans were created in the image of God! The only thing you would have read from me about God is that I have no idea who or what IT is! Nor will I try to guess because there is not enough information to form an opinion one way or the other! Although I believe in a god, you will never read anything from me claiming to know who or what IT is!

I am have to concede that your scientific knowledge far exceeds mine and like yourself I would defer that the sciences are your area of expertise and to try and debate these at any length without adequate knowledge would be folly. Yes, I have committed the cardinal sin of misrepresentation with suggesting I would explain the science behind this, I think processes would have been more apt as my further comment stated.

For the record, I wasn't trying to disrespect you. You made a claim that doesn't agree with the observed evidence and I simply corrected you. Besides, I have far too much respect for you to intentionally disrespect you.

I do watch the wonderful series the universe and also Brian cox great series wonders of our solar system. Both of these offer great insights into how the earth and other planets formed and also point towards their future progression or expiry whichever angle you take. But dont ask me to explain any of it.

Mr Darwin.

That's right, I had forgotten about Wonders of the Solar System! Another excellent series! But I sure would appreciate it if they would get around to making new programs, I'm tired of watching all the re-runs. But I do anyway and I usually discover something new that I may have missed prevously.

Do you live in the UK or the USA? The reason I ask is because I thought you lived in the UK and I did not know that these same programs are also airing there!

Anyway, I hope you didn't take my response personal because some major correcting regarding the BB was in order. Just as I would expect you to correct me if I made a boner of a mistake regarding evolution.

fuzoid

Hi Fuzoid,

I am not offended by anything you have responded to as I have equal respect for yourself also. If I am happy to contribute here I have to be prepared to be challenged on what I say, and that, to my mind is all you have done, as is your right and by that I am not above being corrected.

My post was based on hypothesis, the key word being "IF" as in "If there was a creator" or "If god was humanoid" . My intention wasn't to attach a specific belief to yourself, I am aware that you have always held an open minded stance with regard to god and other tenets around religion.

The debate about the origins of the world, universe et al is far reaching and for me my belief will not allow me to accept that we could have been placed here by a creator/god, it just doesn't fit. Given the vast amount of evidence and facts supporting evolution there cannot be any other explanation for our existance.

I live in the Uk, Manchester to be exact, a fine city, I am a mancunian and have always lived in Manchester. It is always a pleasure to converse with you as you always offer interesting debate and something I can add to or even challenge if I dare to.

Mr Darwin.

Mr Darwin wrote:Hi Fuzoid,

I am not offended by anything you have responded to as I have equal respect for yourself also. If I am happy to contribute here I have to be prepared to be challenged on what I say, and that, to my mind is all you have done, as is your right and by that I am not above being corrected.

Cool! I know I have a way of coming off as combative or argumentative and I usually don't mean it as such. Someone once made a statement about me that I was brutal or ruthless when debating and I do see it at times, as do those who take my responses personally. And when they are offended, it's usually too late to convince them that I didn't mean it the way they took it!

My post was based on hypothesis, the key word being "IF" as in "If there was a creator" or "If god was humanoid" . My intention wasn't to attach a specific belief to yourself, I am aware that you have always held an open minded stance with regard to god and other tenets around religion.

Then I must have misunderstood the gist of your message. Thanks for clarifying.

The debate about the origins of the world, universe et al is far reaching and for me my belief will not allow me to accept that we could have been placed here by a creator/god, it just doesn't fit. Given the vast amount of evidence and facts supporting evolution there cannot be any other explanation for our existance.

And I truly have no issue with this statement as I also believe we evolved, and we're still evolving! But as mentioned in a previous response, believing in evolution does not preclude believing in a creator! Anyway, if evolution was the only tool I was using to make a determination, then I would probably agree with you 100%. But I'm factoring in evidence, both empirical and anecdotal, from a number of different sources and I believe they all point in the same direction, the possible existence of a creator. Besides, I honestly have a hard time believing consciousness arose out of inanimate matter unless the universe itself is conscious, and self aware, which it would have to be if there is no creator. And if it is, when did it become self aware and where did it get its consciousness? Was the universe, in its singularity form, conscious before the BB? Remember, something had to exist prior to the BB and was the cause for it!

I live in the Uk, Manchester to be exact, a fine city, I am a mancunian and have always lived in Manchester.

Ironically, having spent 8 years in the US Navy, I've travelled all over the world and was able to experience many different cultures (for the ladies in our audience, it's not true that a sailor has a girlfriend in every port), but the closest I came to visiting the UK was passing through Heathrow and Gatwick. But I did have to spend the night in a hotel because my return flight landed too late and the airport was in the processing of closing. Are hotel rooms in the UK as small as the one I slept in that night? I've seen bigger closets!

I'll be sure to visit the UK for vacation one of these days and if I do, I'll try to swing through Manchester. I've heard it's very beautiful there.

It is always a pleasure to converse with you as you always offer interesting debate and something I can add to or even challenge if I dare to.

Mr Darwin.

Ditto! And please, dare....

fuzoid
http://www.live365.com/stations/fuzoid